The Saturday Free School studies the lifeworld of the Black Proletariat in order to develop a revolutionary science for our times. We believe this is essential to the liberation of all people in American society. We are in an era where White Gods are failing — white churches, white universities, white politics, white science, and white civilization itself. Our hope lies in understanding the Black Proletariat’s search for Black Gods, something identified by Arthur Fauset in his seminal 1940 study Black Gods of the Metropolis. In the long sojourn in the wilderness of North America, the Black Worker has never lost his search for the Black God, a search for meaning and truth that can make freedom real. We see in the nearly century-long work of the Nation of Islam an exceptional case of this search. The Nation of Islam remains the strongest institution of Black Liberation Theology, and exemplifies what W.E.B. Du Bois calls “our spiritual strivings.”

Where many institutions and preachers have shut the door on the work of the Saturday Free School, often due to their devotion to the Democratic Party machine, we have always found the Nation of Islam and Mosque Maryam to be generous and principled partners in our work for the ideological education of the masses. Furthermore, the Nation of Islam reflects the ideal of beauty in a wilderness so bereft of love and truth.

The subject of the interview is Ishmael Muhammad, Student National Assistant Minister of the Nation of Islam. It is the story of a child of the Nation of Islam, a worker for the freedom of Black people and oppressed humanity, and a student and propagator of liberation theology. This dialogue is a beginning of a project of ideological renewal that must take place if the people are to break out of the dark and tragic landscape of contemporary America. This is a process of developing new definitions of knowledge, science, faith, revolution, and even God, to meet the challenges of the 21^st century.

The interview took place over the course of two days on June 9th and June 10th, 2025 in the office of Minister Ishmael. We were greeted and treated with great generosity and warmth by Minister Ishmael, his daughter, and his staff. Though each session was scheduled for only two hours, we went over three hours on each day, with Minister Ishmael’s assurance that he was committed to answering our questions. He is a humble man who takes his job seriously but sees himself as merely a student of the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad and the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan and “helper” of the people. He preferred not to speak a great deal about his own life at first. As Dr. Monteiro said, Minister Ishmael’s life journey is reflected in his beliefs.

We have organized the interview thematically, including Black Gods, Knowledge as Science and Faith, the Sociology and Politics of Black America, the Second Resurrection, the Third Resurrection, Prophecies of War, Peace, and Revolution, the Infinite Capacity of Humanity, the significance of the transition in leadership, and Minister Ishmael: Son of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. The full interview video will also be made available online.

At the end of the interview, Minister Ishmael said he had never been interviewed in this way, and he felt destiny had brought us together. We hope that in the coming years we will witness a Third Resurrection in which the worldview of the Black Proletariat, encapsulated in the teachings of the Nation of Islam, will be embraced and developed further by world humanity to establish, as their faithful believe, a universal government of peace.

Interview by Meghna Chandra, Jahan Choudhry, Neha Chivukula, Anthony Monteiro.

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Interview

Black Gods

Dr. Monteiro: Minister Ishmael may I ask you one question on that very important point? I don’t know whether you’re familiar with the book by Arthur Fausset published in 1940 entitled Black Gods of the Metropolis. His argument is, just as you have said, that as Black people move from the South, they were seeking new gods, in fact Black gods. It seems that he is arguing that, whether they knew it or articulated it or not, Black folk have been striving to discover gods for them, literally “Black Gods.” Would that make sense to you? So the Nation of Islam, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, and probably Noble Drew Ali and others were reflecting a deep aspiration of Black people to find gods other than the white gods that were trying to be imposed. Is that fair?

Min. Ishmael: I think that is more than fair to say. (Laughter) What the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said and taught is that the Black man is God. In our Supreme Wisdom lessons that every registered member of the Nation of Islam received upon becoming registered is, “Who is the original man?” The answer is “The original man is the Black man, the maker, the owner, the cream of the planet Earth, God of the universe.” It was the Honorable Elijah Muhammad that taught us our origin, our history in the world and how the Caucasian people came on our planet. It is impossible — genetically, biologically — for two white persons to produce a Black person. So all of the races, the Bible says, “from one blood came all the nations and they were given their own boundaries and appointed time.” So what one blood is that? The Genesis… and now we’re going into theology! (Laughter) 

[Minister Ishmael explains the Nation of Islam’s theology for the origin of white people going back to the book of Genesis and Biblical evidence.]

Dr. Monteiro: Let me ask you this then. This idea of “Black Gods” which it seems [for] the Nation of Islam, is so central to your theology. But then there are white gods. And we have read in the New York Times and other newspapers that all of the mainline and mainstream white denominations are in decline, but the Nation of Islam is not in decline. Daddy Grace’s United House of Prayer for All People is not in decline. Prophet Cherry’s church is still active in Philadelphia and probably other places. So Black Gods seem to be alive and white gods seem to be in decline. Is this part of the prophecy or prediction of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and is this part of your ministry, the ministry of the Honorable Louis Farrakhan in the Second Resurrection?

Min. Ishmael: There is only one Ministry. I don’t have a ministry and Minister Farrakhan does not have a ministry that is separate and independent of the ministry, the teachings, the ideology and philosophy of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. We cannot characterize what the Honorable Elijah Muhammad has taught as his prophecy. What the Honorable Elijah Muhammad did was he introduced us to what is written of prophecy that’s in the Bible and Holy Quran because his teacher Master Fard Muhammad taught him of the Torah, of the Gospel, of the wisdom of the book, the Kitab, the Holy Quran. He taught him the meaning of what is contained in the scriptures. And biblical scholars agree with the Honorable Elijah Muhammad: what we read about in the Bible, 75% of it is prophecy, 25% is actual recorded history. But what the new ruler or Satan did was he took the 25% that is actual recorded history in the Bible, he made that prophecy, and he took the 75% that is prophecy and made that to appear as though it actually happened. For instance in the Book of Genesis God is talking to Abraham. He is telling Abraham, “Your seed is going to be a stranger in a land not up their own; they’re going to be slaves to another for four hundred years, but after that time I will come, I will judge that nation which they shall serve and afterwards they shall come out with great substance and go to their fathers in peace.” 

[Min. Ishmael explains the Nation of Islam’s interpretation of the Bible with Black people as the true children of Israel who are yet to fulfill their destiny, and the lack of historical evidence for the Jewish exodus thesis. He also identifies the Beast from Revelations as the Western white man, and the decline in Western fertility rates.]

So we are looking at a culture that is gradually being extinguished naturally because the time for their rule, their existence, according to the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, is up. This is why we see so much chaos in the world and you hear so much talk about saving, preserving: Western civilization. They feel that they’re under attack and you see the rise of the indigenous people all over the world. Europe and America and the Caucasian people’s time of rule and Western hegemony is up. But they are so powerful, they cannot be defeated by any foreign power. So I think it was the historian William Durant who said before a great civilization is destroyed; they’re not destroyed from without, they are destroyed from within. 

So now look at the institutions. Look at Harvard, look at all their great institutions of learning under attack. Look at the panic now: “democracy, this is the end of democracy.” It’s the end of their world, because it was never built on the principles of truth, justice. The whole system has been built, according to the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, a system built on lies, tricks, deceit, falsehood, corruption. So that’s a long answer but see, that’s prophecy being fulfilled in all of the prophecies of the Bible, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad which makes him the most important and significant theologian. Black, white, red, brown, yellow, it doesn’t matter. There are many theologians and biblical scholars and preachers who do lift these prophecies to point out what we are witnessing today is fulfillment of Prophecy. We’ve come to the end of the world. And when a world comes to an end, systems go out, nations go out, people go out. History shows the rise and fall of civilization. This is the time of the end of European or Western civilization. It’s up. It’s served its time. It served its purpose, according to the will of God. So the Minister said, whatever God wills: sun, moon, stars; the forces of nature; aid; what God permits or what he wills. When that purpose has been fulfilled, the same forces that once worked for it now work against it because its time is up. So we are witnessing the expiration of a people and a civilization. That explains extreme weather.

See, even they’re at a loss of how violent the weather is. They want to blame it on the gases, on the ozone layer. No, no, no.

Those of us who study God, and what is written… all of these calamities, all of these natural disasters is what God brings upon a nation and a people who have rebelled. So the Quran speaks about many things that God will send upon the wicked as well as the Bible. And Jesus of course spoke of the end times. He talks about nation rising up against nation, kingdom against kingdom. See? Peter talks about perilous times shall come when men will be boasters and defamers. And see, this is all prophecy written hundreds of years ago. Now we’re witnessing it.

So the Honorable Elijah Muhammad did not bring us prophecy. He made us aware that we are fulfilling prophecy… and he taught, when you read his writings, he talks about the Judgment of God and he talks about how God would bring upon the wicked four great judgments: rain, hail, snow, earthquakes. We have always been in the time of God. But as the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us, he said we are all gods. Every human being is a possessor of power and force. But you have an evil God and you have a righteous God, and the God who is the Supreme Being over all gods determined that there would be a season and a time for Satan, who’s a god — he’s a God.

Satan would be given a time of 6,000 years to exercise his rule, a contrary life and a world and a lifestyle opposite the God of Creation, the God of Nature, the God of Righteousness and Justice. But we’re now at the end of Satan’s rule. And most people don’t realize, and going to the Bible, Satan deceived the whole world. And the Minister asked the question, are we not in the world? So could it be that we too have been deceived by Satan?

So Satan has had his day, but his time is up.

I just gave a lecture yesterday and the title of the lecture was “We Are All Gods,” children of the most high God. So the gods, the original gods, as the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us, were put to sleep to allow for the new God to exercise his power. But now, the Black God and Gods are awakening, and now are going to take back the rule and the power from the enemy. That is what we are living in right now. 

Knowledge as Science and Faith

Meghna: [How does the Nation of Islam relate to modernity?] By that, I mean the idea [of] human beings coming into their maturity. What does it mean to say, “God is Man, God is a Black man” [when the white world is saying “God is dead”]? In a way [NOI theology] could be seen as contradictory because this is an era of science and reason; “aren’t we beyond religion?”

Minister Ishmael: Real religion, as taught to us by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, is rooted in science. And if you can’t prove from your theology that which exists in nature, then that’s not religion.

The greatest truth that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad revealed to the world is that God is not a mystery. God is not a spook. God is not invisible, and both the Bible and the Holy Quran refer to God in human terms, human qualities, human characteristics. So he is God, he talks but he doesn’t have a mouth. He speaks to His prophets but he has no vocal cords. He sees but he doesn’t have eyes. He hears but he doesn’t have ears. Then you have in the Bible where God actually makes an appearance. Abraham sees three men approaching him, and the scriptures say, “and one of them was the Lord.” What? Enoch walked with God.

So the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said, “Show me your God.” I know you can’t do that. There’s no such thing as a God being immaterial, intangible, invisible. “What interest,” the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said, “would he have in the material world and why were we giving eyes to see physical reality?” What would an invisible God be? If he was a spirit and invisible and the law in nature is everything reproduces after itself, and man is made in the image and likeness of God, then if he is invisible, why am I not invisible if I’m in his image? Why would he create a material universe and he be the opposite, or he be immaterial, and everything else is material. Doesn’t make any sense at all.

So God, throughout all the scriptures, it’s not a spook that’s talking. Then you come to this human being called Jesus that’s declared the son of God. And he’s called God incarnate — well how can he be God In the Flesh, and his father, who is God, not be a material being?

Doesn’t make any sense, does it? So the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said, “God is a man and you cannot make him anything other than a man, a human being, if he’s not human then say ‘it.’” Refer to God as an inanimate object then, but all of the expressions of God and his talking, you can’t even rationalize and reason with that intelligently, that here is God speaking human language, he’s got hands. Adam and Eve see him, hear him. They said the footsteps of the Lord are in the garden and they hid themselves from the presence of God.

You don’t hide yourself from a spook, you hide yourself from something that got eyes that can see you. Then they put the fig leaf on… hey guys what are you doing? What are you doing?

So this is the greatest revelation and truth that’s at the core of the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.

Dr. Monteiro: Could I ask a question?

Min. Ishmael: Yes sir, of course.

Dr. Monteiro: You know, confronted for instance in the Christian Bible or the Jewish Bible if you will, is the paradoxes, unsolved questions. And so Christians would say there are unsolved questions and therefore it requires of Believers that they have faith, that they not rely upon what they can see or taste or hear, but the realm of faith is important or maybe critical to any form of religious belief. Does the Honorable Elijah Muhammad advocate for faith or for science? If I’m making myself clear. Because science does not refer or default to faith.

Min. Ishmael: Correct.

Dr. Monteiro: But religion, or at least most religion, defaults to faith.

Min. Ishmael: Well, faith by definition is trust, confidence, in a person or a thing. Both the person and the thing are material. Every thought, every concept that comes up in the mind of the human being comes out of the physical reality. It’s unseen, right?

An inventor, he’s got an idea. The idea comes from vision, right? He’s looking at a universe, he’s looking at things, and an idea sparks. Go back to the Wright brothers. Birds have wings, maybe man can fly. Think about it. That moon. For so many, many millennia, human beings been looking up there. Give credit to white folks. Hmm. I think we can build something to get to the moon. It’s unseen. Now I’m going to exercise faith in my idea to bring it into what reality. That’s how everything we see has come into existence. It’s an unseen concept, unseen meaning, it hasn’t become materialized, it hasn’t come into reality — that’s faith. Faith in terms of religion takes you into a realm of Spookism. 

Now this was purposely done by religious leaders who developed a doctrine knowing that they could not prove and defend scientifically what they were introducing to the public. So the doctrine is “have faith,” or “you can’t question God,” or “the Lord works in mysterious ways.” Stop.

Science doesn’t buy none of that. You can’t prove to a people of science or even to the Common Man, for instance, Jesus the Immaculate Conception. Here is a human, a human born from a human, without the agency of man and sperm. Come on, man.

Science says that’s impossible. Every human being must have sperm from a male and the ovum of the female inside of the womb of the female, that’s the only way you’re gonna get a human being. But church doctrine: “No, no, no, no… the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost moved upon Mary and she became pregnant.” Nobody can buy that.

God works in reality. So church doctrine is to keep people ignorant and from questioning what they have presented to the people, so the Lord works in mysterious ways, you can’t question God. Stop. Stop. So that faith is religion, that’s called organized religion for the purpose of controlling the masses of the people.

Real religion is the nature of man and the nature of things. And the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said if you cannot prove your religion and your God in the nature of things then you don’t have religion. So that, I think, Dr. Monteiro is the distinction and the difference. Yes, as a believer in God, I have faith in him. But faith in him based upon his word…

Sociology and Politics of Black America

Meghna: I think it’s really deep what you’re saying about the stability of the leadership because especially the last four to five decades — the ruling elite have sought to destroy and impoverish people. Specifically, we have been thinking about deindustrialization and what it did to the people of Chicago. And we were just wondering if you could speak to, in this context of devastation and violence that the enemy has sought to inflict on people, what has been the impact of Mosque Maryam on the social landscape of people in Chicago? And especially how was the ministry being received among the youth?

Min. Ishmael: Received very well. There was a time that we had greater access to young people and I was given the privilege to speak in many of our schools. But speaking to those forces — and this is why it’s so hypocritical to talk about what they want to see in terms of stemming the tide of violence. But we are a blessing to the city, and you have seen with your eyes and heard with your ears what we give to young people that have such a positive effect. I’ve been in the worst of the schools in this city and all it takes is an hour and a few minutes with the teaching of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, and it affects them so profoundly that the administrators and the principals of the school, after we leave, tell us how the students behaved, how they interacted with one another. But why are you afraid? Why do you keep us from our own people and from these young people? Are you saying that you want them to kill each other? Because that’s what it looks like when you have in your mix, you have in your city a program, and a Word that positively affects young people, but you are not making that available to them. You seem to be fine with the violence. None dare call it “conspiracy.” (Laughter)

You have to look at — why don’t you want Muhammad and Farrakhan? Why don’t you have us at the table to talk about the real problems? You’re spending millions and hundreds of millions of dollars on crime prevention and nothing works — but who historically has the track record of turning lives completely around? Who has the proven record of taking men and women out of the streets, cleaning them up from drug and alcohol abuse? Who has taught our men to respect their women more than the Nation of Islam? The discipline making us law-abiding citizens, respecting the laws of the land. Nobody has done that. We have a 90-year record. The Minister called for a million men. The National Guard was prepared in case something jumped off. No violence. It all goes back to what we were saying: you say you want “peace.” You don’t want peace. If we change the moral character of our people, then that puts the liquor [out of] business. We take them out of business. The drug dealer. Look at everything that is still affecting our community. That means you have to close down Cook County jail, state prisons. You know how much money goes into that? You don’t want people’s lives cleaned up. You want to keep them in a condition that you can profit from their misery, profit from their ignorance. 

If you have the people eating the right foods and eating one meal a day, these fast food businesses are not gonna survive. By teaching people the right foods, McDonald’s, Wendy’s, Taco Bell, Burger King — they all out of business. But you don’t see all of those establishments in your learned, affluent communities, you got to travel a little distance, they may be off the highway somewhere. But look at in our community, look at the liquor stores, look at all of the fast food establishments, look at the crime, look at everything. But the Nation of Islam cleans up a lot of people. So we are a positive force in our community, but we are not given the access. The mayor of this city and the city council… When you have a group of people that have a proven record, but the satanic forces — how you going to say that we are racist? How you gonna say that we’re antisemitic? All of that, but everywhere we go, we can fill up arenas, we can call a million men, no violence, nobody going out. Putting a swastika over here or planning to harm another human being — see these are efforts of the enemy to marginalize us and to keep what we have of value to be received by the masses. Which means that they have their plan, and their plan and agenda is not in the best interest of the people. Otherwise we would have had this thing cleaned up decades ago. We wouldn’t even be confronted with what we are confronted with in the major cities across the United States.

Look at how Elijah Muhammad cleaned us up. Look at the respect that we have; and we teach about the devil and we give the truth. But you don’t find us out here disrespecting any human being, because the knowledge of self is what makes you respect all human beings, and the knowledge of the Original Man. Knowing that from the Original Man came all people, then I’m gonna respect all that came from us, and it’s in the absence of that knowledge of self that you have self-hatred. Our people are killing each other. What’s at the root of it? Ignorance. What’s at the root of it? Self-hatred. Jesus said: He who hates his brother is a murderer. You can’t tell a person “love everybody” and you first don’t teach that person to love themselves. Love of self is first. Love of God is first. That’s the first law: Love the Lord, your God, with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength. The second law is likened unto the first: Love your neighbor, love your brother and sister as you love yourself. I can’t love you if I don’t love myself. I can’t respect you as you should be respected if I don’t respect myself. Look at the way that Elijah Muhammad has our women covering themselves: modesty. Look at how you dress; it’s a part of the culture. 

But look at this. What we have, our women parading and put in front as objects of sex. A man, uncultivated, underdeveloped, you’re bringing the beast out of him, the animal that’s in the human being. So how do we relate to our women as objects of sex? Not as a divine creature from God? It starts with education. Sex education — it is crap. Children need to be taught the divinity of themselves and the divinity of the female. We go to school and we learn to be a doctor, a biologist, a physicist, all of these things. But the biggest thing that we run into in life is how to relate to the opposite sex, and that we are not taught. You don’t get one course in education on how to be a husband. But then we go to the altar. You mean to tell me, we go to school all of these years and we never learned the most important role that we are going to have to play in life’s journey is to be a father, a mother, a husband, a wife? So you got all of these problems in relationships. Divorce is up here, because we’re going into this ignorant, without knowledge, especially here. In other cultures, it’s a little different. But Western influence is gradually eroding the values of our Asian societies, Eastern societies, in India, throughout the world.

We are a positive force and everywhere we go, every week we are out among our people, every week, and we are taking a weapon for the revolution. We’re armed with Truth and with a Word that causes our people to see themselves, see their value. We take that newspaper. That’s counter-revolution. [Here Minister Ishmael refers to revolutionary work countering the assault on the people.] We’re redirecting our people’s minds to focus on themselves. You can take the attention and direct it at the injustice in the society and all that, but how about the injustice that we do to ourselves? If I’m filling my body with tobacco, or I’m filling my body with alcohol — this is destructive. So there has to be a counter-revolution and you redirect all of that to the self. As we were talking — what kind of world is there going to be in which you and me, as a human being, have not been transformed? There has to be a total transformation of the human being to bring in a whole new society, a whole new world. If there’s no transformation of the human being you don’t have a new world, you just have a variation of the same old thing, excuse that expression. I hope I’m making sense.

Jahan: You addressed the conditions facing the people, especially Black people, in terms of violence, drug addiction, problems between the sexes, but another major issue is, as Meghna was saying, deindustrialization — the moving of factories, and good job prospects away from particularly urban areas, although now it’s something affecting the country as a whole. So if you could speak about how you’ve participated in and observed the Nation of Islam responding to this condition of impoverishment, particularly of Black people, but also of the working class and the society as a whole because this seems to be a major crisis confronting everyone in this moment.

Min. Ishmael: It is a crisis that the Honorable Elijah Muhammed foretold back in the ‘60s. He told us as a people that we would face a day where America would not be able to employ her own, much less, at that time, 20 million [Black people]. So the program of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad was, and is, do for self. He warned us that if we did not do for ourselves, we would be suffering unemployment, because we’re totally dependent on others to do for us what we should and can do for ourselves. So four, five decades ago; Gary, Indiana, the steel mills, the automobile industry — see all of the Industrial Revolution attracted jobs, but greed by the owners and the national corporations, finding cheap labor and the markets. Then when those factories began to close and they were being shipped to cheat labor markets overseas, that left Black people without a job. And all of those cities — Detroit; Gary, Indiana — 

Jahan: I mean, even here [in Chicago] right?

Min. Ishmael: Even here! But Elijah Muhammad kept warning us: we have to do for self. We have to be industrious. We have to build and operate our own factories. We have to get land so that we can feed our own people. Now look at us. We’re continuing that messaging because in order for people to survive, they have to be self-sufficient. We are entirely too dependent on others to do for us what we should be doing for ourselves.

Jahan: So when you say self-sufficient that means establishing Black-owned businesses and organizations and that sort of —

Min. Ishmael: But not just businesses of retail operations. Not just opening up a business and selling products that you have to get from a manufacturer. We have to be the manufacturers of the products, so that’s why land acquisition and land ownership is critical because all of the materials, the raw materials, they come from the Earth. So just to open up a business, a store, a clothing store, that’s nice, a shoe store, that’s nice. You go out into the Black community, there are a lot of Black businesses, there are restaurants, there are establishments. But the big boys are in there. Walgreens. Target. Then it puts the little guy out of business. We don’t even own a grocery store. What grocery chain do Black people own? We don’t even have a chain of grocery stores. Not nationally. Certainly not locally. So when you look at it from that view… it’s not just businesses in terms of retail sales, but where’s your steel mill? Where is your timber? Your [timber] mills, where you’re taking the trees. You’ve gotta go to the root of it. You can make clothes, but where are your mills? Industry. Industry. Industry. That’s something that we as a people, after all of these years, don’t seem to grasp.

One day at this place called Starved Rock — it’s a park here in Illinois — and it’s by the river. It’s about a couple hours from here or less and when we were there, the guy was telling us that from the river they take this gravel that’s used for fracking, but it only comes from Illinois and it’s shipped over into the East and those [places] that are, you know, drilling for oil. And he said, “People don’t realize how much money there is in this.” And I said, “Isn’t that something?” I was gonna take some of the gravel, the rock, which is very fine, and bring it and show to people and say, “Do you think that there’s a lot of money in this?” Most people said, “It’s just sand, it’s just gravel, it’s just pieces of stone.” Oh, there’s a lot of money in it. The point is we don’t own the land. As a nation, 50 million people, where are our factories?

Jahan: You mean it more in a collective sense? Because one thing I’ve been struck by is that when you all said, do for self — you don’t mean it as an individual business person or in terms of individual problems but that it should be a collective thought process.

Min. Ishmael: That’s right. Exactly right.

Jahan: So another question we spoke about — the impact of Mosque Maryam here on these areas, violence and economics, but also one of our questions was about the impact of the mosque and the Nation of Islam on the political landscape of Chicago. Because I think you had sort of alluded to this as well. Part of the challenge is that the political establishments throughout the country, nationally, but also in every major city, seem to be trying to infiltrate and use institutions of Black people. Obviously every politician needs, especially the Democratic Party needs, the votes of Black people. And in our work in the Free School, this has been one of the obstacles we often face — that many institutions do not really want to work with us because they feel that when we say things critical of the political establishment that is not acceptable. But one thing we’ve always really admired about Mosque Maryam, and the Nation of Islam more broadly, is the independence from that political machine. So we wanted to know if you could speak a bit more about how you see that.

Meghna: Also particularly in the context of this city, the Chicago machine. And also the history of Harold Washington. If I remember correctly, he refused to denounce Farrakhan. Is that right?

Dr. Monteiro: He would never do it.

Meghna: Yes, he would never do it.

Jahan: Yes, the high points of Black political power like Harold Washington are very much a contrast with the situation now, which, to us, it seems as though there is very little independent Black political power. That it’s essentially Black politicians who are agents, more or less, of the white establishment.

Dr. Monteiro: If you think it is bad here in Chicago, come to Philly. (Laughter) They’re known as the Black Misleadership Class.

Min. Ishmael: Well, again, we’re speaking to a system, and maybe we’re starting to mature as a community, to understand that being in any of these parties that only come and take our vote, and very little, if anything, that they promise, do they ever deliver on, so that means again if we’re maturing, then we have to set up our own political party. If we are going to participate in politics, we cannot continue to allow these candidates or politicians to take a vote and we do not make them accountable. But you can only make them accountable by a people’s agenda. They come with their agenda, ask for your vote, but a mature community has their agenda and then they say: “Okay, Ishmael, we want you to represent us, and this is our agenda that we want you to advocate when we put you as a city councilman, when we make you a state representative, when we make you a congressman. We hold you accountable.” It’s a collective. But generally it’s an individual, or the party that chooses someone to go and run. You know, national politics is local politics. So they come before us and because, for whatever reason, historically, Blacks started in the Republican Party, then the Democrats came in, but the Democrats have done more harm to Black people historically.

Dr. Monteiro: Now why would you say that? (Laughter)

Min. Ishmael: Because it’s true. (Laughter)

But regardless to the party, both parties are part of the white establishment, and we don’t seem to get it. Then they tell you like it was, not this election, the last one, you have to choose between the lesser of two evils. You either have to choose Satan — no, Lucifer — or Beelzebub. They are both the devil. What are you telling me? And then for you to actually say, “Choose the lesser of two evils,” but I’m voting for evil. There’s no such thing as lesser of two evils. At the end of the day with every election — where is our agenda? So they come and just take our vote and we go out and then we get disappointed. We voted for a Black man. We just are not conscious enough, mature enough. We’re getting there. And then with the last election, many of our people were upset with their own people because we didn’t come out. We are tired of that game. We’re just supposed to vote for Kamala, because Kamala is Black and Indian? We’re just gonna vote because of color? Wait a minute! This has to stop. We participate only to the degree that it is in our best interest. Otherwise what’s the point? They make it seem like because we struggle and all that, the price that was paid for us to earn the right to vote… We vote for God. And why should I participate and give my vote to a satanic, corrupt, wicked, unjust system. It’s better for me to withhold my vote. Period. They say, “Oh, you didn’t participate.” Participate? Participate for what? I don’t even want my name to be on the record that I gave my support to a demon, a devil, an agent of Satan. No. So, we’re not invested in that. We are invested in ourselves. And what is in the best interest of our suffering people is the program of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad in the Nation of Islam. He was not against voting or the political process, as long as that candidate was worthy of our vote. Then we put our full support behind that candidate, but that candidate works for, is accountable to, us. Not, Nation of Islam. The Black community! Not these lobbyists or private interests. These politicians are bought. We don’t have a government of the people, by the people, for the people. You have a government that is of the corporations, of the rich, for the rich, by the rich…

Dr. Monteiro: And the military…

Min. Ishmael: …and whoever pays the most. So it’s corrupt. Money buys politicians. Not the people. And then they go out and buy the vote.

The Second Resurrection and Resisting Counter-Revolution

Dr. Monteiro: Can I ask a question? How do you explain Wallace’s undoing of the Nation? What motivated that?

Min. Ishmael: Well, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, I learned in 1974…

Dr. Monteiro: You should mention that Wallace is one of the sons, the Seventh Son of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.

Min. Ishmael: That is correct. There was always great hope and promise from my father in Wallace. His teacher, Master Fard Muhammad, even gave instructions to his mother to take special care of him. And he was given the name “Wallace” after the master teacher, Fard Muhammad, who of course, was known as W.D. Muhammad, Wallace Fard Muhammad. So that name was given to the Honorable Elijah Muhammad’s son, my brother. So we learned later that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad had said something to the effect that he had a gift to give to Wallace at Saviours’ Day, so publicly and privately it was always known that Minister Farrakhan, who was his National Representative, would be his successor but there was also Wallace, Imam Warith Deen Muhammad, in the picture. So the family made the decision based upon what they understood. But they also knew very well that Minister Farrakhan was the one that their father wanted. So the family made that decision and that’s how Imam Warith Deen Muhammad was presented at the Saviours’ Day 1975 as the leader that would take the Nation of Islam forward. But of course he had a whole other idea and agenda of how the Nation should go and he took the Nation into more Orthodox Islam. He took away the idea of separation. He took away a lot of the self-sufficiency and “doing for self” like Muhammad advocated for so many decades, and so he just took a course opposite his father. 

That’s what led to Minister [Farrakhan], who did his best to serve in Manhattan and help him. Minister Farrakhan was of course relocated from New York here to Chicago, but after a while the Minister could not continue to support Imam Warith Deen Muhammad, particularly in terms of the philosophy and the program that he was actually destroying from his father. But because the Imam did not speak kindly of his father, the Minister told him, “That is not good.” The Imam said a lot of negative things about his father and the Minister could not accept him speaking against his father in the manner and the way that he was doing, so he let him know that he was going to back away. But he would never do anything to hurt him and that’s what led ultimately to the Minister making the decision that he was going to lift the name of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, restore his work and his good name in the public. That happened in September of 1977 and once the Minister — we say, “woke up,” and there’s a whole backstory to that. He went to work and began to speak around the country and in colleges and universities, but he was set on rebuilding the Nation of Islam and restoring the Honorable work of Elijah Muhammad, his teachings and his program for Black people.

Jahan: So during this period of 1975 to 77, I think I’ve heard you in another interview speak about how Imam Warith Deen’s takeover or coming to leadership of the Nation of Islam — but essentially ideologically shifting it — was very significant because, in some ways, it was the final organization of that period of the ‘60s that was essentially dissolving itself ideologically, because by that point, the assassinations that happened of the ‘60s of Martin Luther King, of Malcolm X, of Fred Hampton, the Black Panther Party was being decimated. And so with the leadership of Imam Warith Deen, if you would agree with this characterization, it seemed as if the Nation of Islam was also being removed as a major vehicle of the Black Freedom Movement. But then with the revival of the Nation of Islam — it was revived as this vehicle. I think I’ve heard you say something along those lines in an interview, so I wanted to ask if that was the period you were in Mexico from 1975 to 77? And was your mother engaged in some sort of study or work and trying to understand what was happening with Imam Warith Dean’s leadership and the decline of the original Nation of Islam and the period within the United States, the overall situation?

Meghna: I can just add a little bit that, I guess, the reason behind this question, the reason we’re so interested in the Nation of Islam, is this concept of counter-revolution. And how the Nation of Islam resisted counter-revolution. This is also a question for so many Third World Liberation Struggles. They will always come at you, they will always try to undermine you and use all kinds, but just how did you resist this counter-revolution that was taking place in this country, and not just in this country — in the world?

Min. Ismael: Well, loaded question. (Laughs) The question is so loaded that I’m thinking how to give the shortest answer because there’s a lot of dynamics as well as history that’s involved. Those who are not familiar with the Black liberation struggle, they are not aware of the wicked satanic forces that have come against the rise of Black people. Many do not know the “denial objective” of the United States government, and that is the Black folk should never be allowed to unite. So when you speak of the Black Panther Party, when we talk about all of those organizations that emerged in the ‘60s, what has to be uncovered is the role, the hand of the United States government that infiltrated these Black organizations to disrupt these organizations from their noble objectives. This is the result of the assassination of Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. So the concentrated focus of the United States government through the Federal Bureau of Investigation and its Counter Intelligence Program, which is not public, and in those memorandums they state very clearly what their objective was. J. Edgar Hoover was looking and working to prevent the rise of “a Black Messiah” that would unite what they call “the nationalist elements” at that time, but the target throughout those decades going all the way back to the ‘40s, ‘50s, ‘60s, ‘70s was the Nation of Islam. In one of their memorandums they list Stokely Carmichael, whose name was later changed to Kwame Ture, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Elijah Muhammad… and so it’s very important that the public and the world know that we as a people who have been struggling for justice, the principal of freedom and equality, we have had to come up against the powerful forces of the United States government that has not allowed Black people to exercise freedom. 

The Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 by President Abraham Lincoln — they did not give us freedom. Emancipation frees you from bondage, from physical chains, but they never gave us the requisite tools nor the education and knowledge that we could exercise freedom: that we could think, act, and do as other free and independent people on our planet enjoy. So the Emancipation Proclamation was not issued out of some moral consciousness, it was issued out of a necessity for the preservation of the Union and the white man in the North did it to punish his brother in the South because it was our labor in the South that allowed for the economy of  the South to be strong. So these are very important points in history but in the overall liberation struggle of Black people. Then you have the Reconstruction period. Then you have lost Black Wall Street, Tulsa. Every time Black folks try to make an independent step including the compromise of 1877, after General Sherman and the federal government had agreed to give Black folk 40 acres and a mule, and they designated land, 360 miles, that had access to the coast from the Carolinas all the way into Georgia, into Florida and the federal government put its troops to protect the free slave that they may go and take the land and build something for themselves. But I think it was the election where there was the compromise between Tilden and Rutherford Hayes — that compromise resulted in federal troops withdrawing and leaving us exposed once again.

So every time that we have tried to do something for ourselves and to be independent as a people, the United States government has always fought those efforts. So when you fast forward into the ‘60s, Black power and the Black pride and the Black love that was building among us and the level of consciousness that Black people were being raised in. And at the root of that was, though we don’t get the credit for it, at the root of Black theology is the Nation of Islam. Because it was the Honorable Elijah Muhammad that began to change how we looked at ourselves and of course, in theology, he was teaching us that Jesus was not a Caucasian white man. So this impacted and affected Black theology and now you have this emergence, if you will, of a conscious, more Black conscious movement that started in the ‘30s. And that is a fact…

[Later in the interview, Min. Ishmael returns to the topic of the fall of the original Nation of Islam.]

Min. Ishmael: A fall. Meaning something that was up, something that was at a great height, which was the Nation of Islam at the time that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad left. The Nation of Islam was so influential, so strong, not only in its membership but strong economically. The progress that was being made up until the time of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad’s departure 1975, we had the heavyweight champion of the world Muhammad Ali, you had artists from the entertainment world joining the Nation of Islam.

Its influence was growing. So from the height of the nation’s progress, from the 44 years you could say of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad’s work, it fell to nothing, and once his son came in — the teachings, the philosophy, gone. See? We use the word “destroy” because it was non-existent. Nobody saw anymore the Nation of Islam that Elijah Muhammad built. 

So you can use both terms. It was destroyed, in one sense, because that which was in existence fell out of existence, or out of the eye of the public and the people, but it was a fall. But as soon as the Minister stood up and all of those that had already received what Elijah Muhammad taught, they were being revived, restored. Hope came back, and when Elijah Muhammad’s name was lifted… The satanic forces, they determined when Elijah Muhammad left in ‘75 that his name and his work would be written out of his history. They thought they had succeeded, but they did not count on or see one of Elijah Muhammad’s disciples and students doing what he has done. And Farrakhan had shook the world with Elijah Muhammad, undeniable, and what the minister has done, my God, there are so many Farrakhans now. There’s so many Elijahs.

That’s why it’ll never fall. I’m here today. I can be gone tomorrow. But this teaching is all in the children and in a generation seen and unseen. And going back to the power that’s behind the Nation of Islam, you have to ask yourself, it was asked earlier: how? You didn’t phrase the question like this, but how in this whole liberation struggle, with the United States government destroying all of the Black organizations and coming out of the ‘60s into the ‘70s, there was just one left, the Nation of Islam. But for the last nearly half century, the Nation of Islam has been front and center. How do you explain that the Nation of Islam has survived?

Dr. Monteiro: Well, how do you explain that?

Minister Ishmael: The onslaught, and the satanic wicked forces that no other group, no other organization has been able to survive from the ‘30s, ‘40s, ‘50s, ‘60s, ‘70s, ‘80s, ‘90s, into the 2000s. We’re in the 21st century, here we are. How do you explain it?

Dr. Monteiro: How do you…

Minister Ishmael: God. 

Dr. Monteiro: No, because — 

Minister Ishmael: Because it’s God that has been the power behind, in, in front of the Nation of Islam. We don’t give credit to anyone for what we do but God. That’s the big difference between all of the great ones, even those that are Christian or Father Divine or Reverend Martin Luther King. All of them were faithful men, but I have to say, the reality of God they did not have. They never spoke boldly like Elijah Muhammad and Louis Farrakhan to say, “God is with me.” Now anybody can say it, but the question is how do you prove it? Well it’s proven. Because everything that the United States government and those that say they are Jews, what they have tried to do to destroy us in the last four decades… No man has come under attack, no preacher, no Black leader has been more vilified, more slandered, evil spoken of, falsely charged than Louis Farrakhan. 

And so how do you explain with everything, the media onslaught on Farrakhan, writing every evil thing. Nobody has been more evil spoken of, falsely charged with every ugly name. What do they call Farrakhan? A hater. A racist. Antisemitic. Right? Anti-American. 

They even say, the former director of the Anti-Defamation League, Abraham Foxman, “Louis Farrakhan is the only leader that that community,” talking about Black people, “have.” And look at how he qualified it. Because he’s the only one that can gather, several times a year, 20,000 or more people. Only Farrakhan has filled up the sports arena. Only Farrakhan has called a million men, and a million show up and bring nearly another million with them. That’s power, and when we went to Washington in 1995, that shook the government. But what they were so surprised by… President Clinton was the president. He conveniently found a speaking engagement to go to in Texas. We shut the government down on that Monday, October 16th.

Never before done in the history of America and the Liberation Struggle. One man, call a million men, Doctor? And they answer not to protest government, not to make a demand on government. We went to Washington, D.C. to make a demand on ourselves on a spiritual principle, atonement, reconciliation, responsibility. 

We went to D.C. to present ourselves before God and the world, to accept the responsibility for our own failures. And seeing him broadcasting the Million Man March, because there never has been an event like that before or since. It was, as it’s said, a shot heard around the world. People all over the world were watching all of these Black men gathered together, shoulder to shoulder. We went there as Christian and Muslim, we went there as nationalists, we went there in our, whatever our fraternity labels are. We went there as gang organizations. But that day, we saw each other as brothers.

And they said the head of the Capitol Police, he’s not there and he’s retired, he’s probably deceased now. He used to be the one that when the president would come before Congress and do the State of the Union and the door would open and the announcements was named, the President of the United States, he looked at the end of that march, and said, “Never has there been a demonstration on the National Mall where the grounds were left that day — on that day, there was no crime in D.C.” And guess what? There was hardly crime anywhere in any city in America. And that day, the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan guided and directed by God, this is how you prove there’s a higher power that’s with the man that is in front of you. 

But we presented before the world a vastly different picture of the Black man after we had been portrayed as criminals and thugs and gangsters and drug dealers and murderers and killers. But on that day, the world looked at the Black man in America and said, “My God.” But it was one man that made that call. That event alone proved what I just said. The only way you can explain our presence, our survival, is the backing of God, who isn’t a spook.

Meghna: Mmm, this is really — 

Minister Ishmael: Real. Real. And when you hear Louis Farrakhan speak, the power and people, this man speaks as though he has a whole army behind him — and it’s not the FOI (Fruit of Islam), but he speaks in the name of God because he knows God. He’s acquainted with God. And you read it in the Bible and the Quran, all of those prophets were bold.

Third Resurrection

Dr. Monteiro: The Nation of Islam was reborn, and I’m going to use my term, from the ashes.

Min. Ishmael: You could say that, but “ashes” is the complete disintegration of…

Dr. Monteiro: I wouldn’t use “ashes” then. But what I wanted to ask, because. You have emphasized strongly the fulfillment of prophecy. And I’m just, if we could imagine together, maybe not next year, maybe not 20 years, a Third Resurrection. Could the Nation of Islam become, with this knowledge — which is, I think you would acknowledge for all human beings — would the Nation of Islam not be what we call the Nation of Islam, but a third Resurrection based upon a broad embrace by humanity of this prophecy?

Min. Ishmael: That’s a very interesting question. First of all, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad saw, he foretold that the nation that he had built and sacrificed for would fall.

Dr. Monteiro: Yes.

Min. Ishmael: And, but he said it would rise again and it will never fall again. So our rise, if you put it in the terms “Second Resurrection” and the rebirth is one that will never again fall. The Nation of Islam where it is presently today in 2025 will only grow, evolve, expand. And the ideology, the philosophy, and the teachings will spread as they already have globally. So the seeds of the new is already planted all around the world, so you will see the Nation of Islam pop up as it already has in Africa. You will see the seed come to life in Asia, Mexico, it’s already there, Central America, it’s already there, South America, it’s already there.

So there will never be a second destruction of the Nation of Islam. What the minister has done in 47 years has ensured that the Nation of Islam will never fall again and that is because of what Elijah Muhammad said. And he was sitting with the Minister, and he told him that the Nation would fall, and he saw the countenance of the Minister fall, and he said, don’t worry brother, it will be rebuilt, and it will never fall again.

The Minister didn’t know at that time that it would be rebuilt on his shoulders. So I don’t see a Third Resurrection. The greater resurrection that both the Bible and the Quran talks about is in process or progress as we speak. 

People are now awakening into a new consciousness that’s on our planet. There is the revival and restoration of the human being taking place right now. The force is awakening and people all over the planet, the whole universe is now aligning itself, and there is a new energy and a new portal that’s been opened up that’s unleashing energy and a new thought that’s going into the minds of human beings all over the planet, and it’s happening globally.

So there won’t be a Third Resurrection. There’s only one resurrection. And what happened with the Nation of Islam, the terminology that Elijah Muhammad used is a correct one. “Fall.”

Dr. Monteiro: I just want to thank you for your response to my question about a Third Resurrection. And I think it leaves us with a lot to think about for tomorrow.

Min. Ishmael: But I think, if I may interrupt you.

Dr. Monteiro: No, no, please.

Min. Ishmael: Your Third Resurrection. You’re looking at the world.

Dr. Monteiro: Yes.

Min. Ishmael: You’re looking at humanity.

Dr. Monteiro: Absolutely.

Min. Ishmael: You’re looking at the human family that needs to be resurrected.

Dr. Monteiro: And let me tell you why. Because I’m looking at the Free School and how we are composed of the world.

Min. Ishmael: Yes.

Dr. Monteiro: You know I’m reminded of one of our members who on Saturday at our meeting, she’s a member and she’s Chinese. And she says Black America can see China, but China does not see Black America. And that’s why I’m connecting it to this new, I’m saying, Resurrection…

Jahan: Great Resurrection.

Min. Ishmael: Mhmm, mhmm.

Dr. Monteiro: But a renaissance that will literally make undeniable to Asia and Africa who we are, and our message to the world. And I know in the Free School; and this is with my colleagues today, we believe, and I think you confirm it, that there is something special going on here. And yeah, that’s all I wanted to say. I called it as a Third Resurrection, or that might not be the right word.

Min. Ishmael: Well…

Dr. Monteiro: But a new stage is being arrived at, almost.

Min. Ishmael: Well the whole human family has been put to sleep by Satan. Asians, Africans, Europeans, Latino, Red Man, Yellow Man, Brown Man, Black Man. All have to be resurrected. So on the inside back page of the Final Call newspaper, we have what originally appeared on the back page of Muhammad Speaks. What, well it’s the Muslim program. What the Muslims want and what the Muslims believe. And one of our beliefs is the resurrection.

So the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, I’m not quoting it perfectly, we believe in the resurrection. Not in physical resurrection, but in mental resurrection. And we believe that the resurrection will take place first with Black people. Then he says, and the resurrection of the righteous. It stops with the member of the human family who has, now this term properly applies, been destroyed completely.

When you take a people from their native land and their native people… Unlike other slave empires that took human beings and made them slaves and used their physical strength for the purpose of manual labor, but with Black people, the slave trader, the slave master, stripped us, Doctor.

They didn’t bring us over here to America to lay their roads, to build for them, to be on the fields picking cotton and produce, destroy. They took from us a name, our culture, our religion, our concept of God. That is destruction.

Because you stripped the mind. So we were stripped of our own identity. And you and I know Black folk were denied the right to know for 300 years. It was forbidden for Black people to acquire knowledge, to learn how to read and write. And when they decided it was okay, they taught us what they wanted us to know about ourselves, our origin and history in the world, and then they taught us about themselves. 

Then what did they do? They gave us their names, their culture, their religion. Take it to modern technology. You’ve deleted the files. You have corrupted the hard drive, the original operating system of the human mind from a people. 

Now you’re downloading your software and you’re installing white operating system; and we wonder why we can’t open up Windows. (Laughter)

But their system is incompatible. So the best that we have done is to try and function, live, operate, under their system. But it does not work because it’s incompatible with your nature. So the Chinese, they’re way up here. They don’t see us. We see them.

What have “us” done to be seen and recognized by the Chinese people or the Japanese people, or white people? They look at Black America and they see, coming out of Black America, musicians, entertainers, athletes, a scholar here and there — from the “learned,” of course. (Laughter) Oh, a Black president.

But the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us: “No man can rise higher than his people.” So they see an individual. But China is not known by its president. They were not known by their Emperors. They made their mark on the planet by their culture, by their science and what they introduced to the rest of the world. That the world would look at what China has to offer, that is of benefit and value. What do we offer of benefit and value? Where is our science, our technology, our innovation? It’s all subdued by white folks. And though we’re in the backroom helping with the inventions, it’s the white man who gets the credit. Not the Black man and Black people. What product do we export to the world that says “Made in Black America”? I don’t see it. And when we go, we don’t represent our people. We go to represent America. And we go to conferences and we go over here and we, of course, speak as “intelligent, educated” from Harvard and Yale and Princeton. 

What is the state of affairs and the lifestyle of your people? Ghetto, fighting, violence, criminality. Those of us who are blessed to get an education, we separate ourselves from that. And we can no longer relate, though some of us may have come right up out the hood. But once we get a certain level of education, you can only relate to people of your kind. You don’t want to be bothered with the ignorant masses, so you’re going to be in the circle of intelligent, educated men and women. Nothing wrong with that. But there is, because W.E.B. Du Bois talked about the Talented Tenth. What we’ve never done is come together as scholars, as educated, learned men and women to see what we can do with the knowledge that we have gained to lift the people. That’s not being done. The masses are over here, and those that came from the masses have become a part of the classes and have forgotten the masses. 

Our people are suffering. You’ve got billionaire Blacks, but the masses are lagging so far behind. It doesn’t matter where you go. You’re in France, you’re in China, you’re in Tokyo, you’re in Dubai — as a learned, rich, Black person, individual from America. But our people? Fifty million of us? Look at our Mexican brothers and sisters. They come here, they’re still Mexicans. They got their restaurants, they got their products. In fact, the Little Village here is second only to the Magnificent Mile in economy, because they all spend among themselves. How popular is Mexican food? The Indians, how popular? Who wants chitlins? (Laughter) There’s a few people who have to come for Harold’s fried chicken. But where is our own unique — collard greens? Sweet potato pie? Fried chicken? Come on. You go to an Indian restaurant, “Oh wow, look at all this.” You go to the Mexican restaurant, “Oh, look at this, look at this spread here.” The French, the Italian, see? 

We don’t have our own culture. The Chinese, they don’t see us. They see us — Gauff just won the French open. Serena before her. LeBron. Jordan. Yes, they see athletes, they see entertainers, they see rappers. They join with everybody else: “Man, them niggas is really talented.” And so the image is: that’s what their gift is and we enjoy it — 

Dr. Monteiro: But isn’t that the conspiracy against Black people? The young woman that I was mentioning to you, she was saying that it is a deficit that the Chinese do not see us. Because the Chinese need to see us, because as Du Bois said, we have a gift for the world. 

Meghna: I also just wanted to mention that passage from Dark Princess, a novel by Du Bois that’s very important to us. There’s a scene where this young Black man explains to the leaders of the darker nations that what Black America has given the world is this idea of humanity, art, and science emerging from the masses of people. And that art is the greatest art in the world because it arises from this experience of, like you said, destruction and devastation. But it proves humanity, and I think the rest of the world is still struggling to learn this lesson.

Min. Ishmael: But the deficit that you mention. It’s our deficit. Because if we hadn’t made ourselves an asset — but he goes to what we were saying. We have to make — as the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said — we have to build ourselves up. We have to have what the Chinese have. What the Frenchmen have. What the Mexicans have. Pride in themselves. 

Dr. Monteiro: What my friend says — who was from China, who in her household only speaks Chinese, although she was raised here, her family immigrated from China. She says yes, all the great achievements of China and you can’t deny this. But yet, there is something missing in the souls of China. The soul of the Chinese people. And they’ll say it from India. They’re from India. It’s almost the same thing. They will say, “But you all have something — and maybe you all don’t even realize it — that we value.”

Min. Ishamel: Once they become introduced to the soul of Black people and the soul that manifests intelligence. But a soul that is so connected and tied into nature itself that the Indian and the Chinese and the Caucasian see, they can only get it from this soul because this soul is what’s giving all souls. That goes back to what we were saying, when we are the mothers and fathers of civilization. If you look at it in that sense, that the children are missing something. They’re missing the parenting. They’re here but they’re not fully connected. The human being is always searching for connection. I can be who I say I am, but I’m not fully connected, I’m not fully grounded, I’m not fully bonded as I should be because the soul has to find, it has to be wedded and tied to the essence of nature itself to have fulfillment and to feel fulfilled: your and my existence. So there’s something missing. So the Chinese can only go so far. Every other race — the Indian is different. Why? Do you want to know why?

Jahan: (Chuckles) Why? Does it have to do with food? Just kidding, we have food, we don’t have much else.

Min. Ishmael: The reason why it’s different is because the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us that your people are members of the original people. You are not part of the yellow or the brown.

You are members of the Black Nation. The Indian people have mixtures, we’ve all been mixed. But the people of India, like it is in all of the different nations, you go all the way, I forget what you call it — the Daka. They have a name — 

Jahan: Dravidians, yeah. She’s (Meghna) more from that part, the Southern part.

Min. Ishmael: But that — your roots, your people are, what the Honorable Elijah Muhammad would say, original people. You are native people to the planet. You’re not a race. You’re not a part of the yellow man, white man, or the brown man. You are original members of the planet itself. But a different philosophy and ideology is what Indians have taken on. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us that your people migrated over into the Western Hemisphere. That’s why the root of all that’s called Indians — here in America going all the way down into Argentina — they all have their roots back to India. And the root is Indian. That’s why they’re called Indians. They were exiled from India 16,000 years ago, but they are members of the original people of our planet.

Prophecies of War, Peace, and Revolution

Dr. Monteiro: Our journal is entitled “Avant-Garde: A Journal of Peace, Democracy, and Science.” We see peace as central to the work that we do. And you believe that a great war — is it a war for Armageddon, would you say that?

Min. Ishmael: Yes, sir. 

Dr. Monteiro: …is inevitable. And if you recall when you made that statement, I said, “I hope not.” And you said, “Well, there’s a small window of hope.” But could you just elaborate on this question of war and peace? Will you speak on that?

Min. Ishmael: The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us, and history bears witness to what he said, that in these last 6,000 years we have seen the rise and the fall of civilizations. We have seen bloodshed, violence, conflict, and wars as never before happened. The Bible talks about war, and it is prophecy that at the end of this 6,000-year period, it will culminate in a great war. And that the efforts of peace will fail. And God in the Bible is telling us that the wicked will seek peace but will not find it. Why? Because the wicked want peace on their own terms, but not on the terms of God. 

Jesus said that there would be wars and rumors of war. There will be pestilence, famine, earthquakes in diverse places. And Jesus said these are just the beginning of sorrows. Wow. Nation is going to rise up against nation, kingdom against kingdom. And the only way to avert that is what Jesus offered in his olive branch of peace, and that is that the wicked have to repent. So Jesus said, “Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.” The kingdom of God that all human beings desire is peace. 

But are the people willing to repent for their evils? Because that’s the only thing that Jesus held out. In the Bible, Jesus said a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. No sign will be given to it, but the sign of Jonah. Jonah is the only prophet in the scriptures that took a message of atonement and repentance to the wicked people of Nineveh. And what Nineveh did, it’s the only miracle in the Bible. Because of all of the other nations or cities and people to whom God sent a prophet, Nineveh was the only city that listened to the prophet. And they, from the king all the way down to the little man, the king went out in sackcloth and ashes. And this spared Nineveh the wrath of God. 

So Jesus holds that out to a wicked and adulterous generation; that if you want to escape the consequences of your evil, and if you want to avert the wrath of God you have to humble yourself. In Second Chronicles — which was the scripture at the base of the Million Man March, soon to be 30 years ago — if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven: forgive their sins, heal the land. 

From the Scriptures, Armageddon is mentioned one time — and it’s in the last book, in the Revelations. It’s a day where the nations are gathered together for a final war. Since World War II, the nations have been building up their arms. Weapons. And nobody wants a war. But when we look at Israel, we’re looking at America, we’re looking at what is happening in the Ukraine and Russia. The governments are not really coming to the table to sit down and make peace. They are strong-arming each other. The worst of the conflicts that are taking place on our planet right now is what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. 

The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan was shown by God what Prime Minister Netanyahu had in his mind all along, which is what has happened over there. They intend to move the Palestinians — which they have — out from Gaza. There’s nothing but rubble, ruin, and destruction. It’s inhabitable. Unlivable conditions. Because in Netanyahu’s mind, he has for a greater Israel and to annex that land into Israel. But the suffering of the Palestinian people, tens of thousands men, women, children. But that is the place in the scriptures. That is the focus of the war of Armageddon. And the prophecy goes: when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that the end is near. 

So everything that we are looking at right now in the world is pointing towards, it’s moving towards war. And the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said it will be a war that will end all wars. After that, peace will come. But the peace is not going to come from America, Russia, China. They are going to destroy each other. This is a very sad prophecy. So that small little window that we spoke about is: will the rulers humble themselves? Will they call their people for atonement and repentance? And if they do not turn to God — which they do not appear as though they’re going to do that, because they’re too arrogant. There’s too much pride. They’re proud, boastful leaders.

Dr. Monteiro: Can I ask you a question? How many years would you predict this war will go on? And what will humanity build after it?

Min. Ishmael: The Honorable Elijah Muhammad said it will be a very short war. It will start with conventional weapons, but it will go nuclear. It’s a big part in all of this. We talked about it yesterday, and what the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us of these real life objects over our head. And these objects that they now call Unidentified Aerial Phenomena. If you notice, the military has captured many images and film. And these wheel-like objects have been seen and are seen over their nuclear installations. They already know that the power from these wheels can disrupt any activity. This should help us to see that God is involved, because God is not going to let the enemy destroy life on our planet. 

So when the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said that it will go nuclear, it does not mean that all of the nuclear weapons that these nations have in their arsenal will be released and will annihilate and destroy life on our planet. There’s another power that is present to keep it from escalating or going to that point of annihilation or extinction. So, after the war — now, when we were talking about Third Resurrection — the people will be ready. And there will be a new government established. But all of this old system and old government will go away. And there would be a unified family and a unified people on our planet. No more will we be divided according to these boundaries. No more will there be this flag, that flag, this — no, no, no, no, no.

Just as it is in the hearts of the people — whether we live in Asia or Africa or Central South America — the common man and person wants what? Unity. But it is our governments that set up all of these lines of division. 

Dr. Monteiro: So it will be a war to destroy governments?

Min. Ishmael: It will be a war that they will be destroying their own selves. And there won’t be a government in place as we know it. There’ll be anarchy, but not to the point where there is no order at all. But it will end all of the systems under which the people of our planet have lived under: which is a system of oppression and injustice. We want peace. The common man wants peace. But the rulers do not want peace. 

So in the Book of Joel, there is a prophecy. And it’s God calling them. And God is saying, “Come all ye men for war,” because this is what is in their hearts and minds. They don’t want peace. So there’s a prophecy where God is saying, “I will give you your own blood to drink like sweet wine.” The Honorable Elijah Muhammad said that the blood will be up to the horse’s bridle. That’s a lot of death. And you say, well how can a good God allow — no, no. They have refused to accept the way of God. God’s way is peace. But Satan is the opposite of God. So this is why, when we were talking yesterday, Satan’s world is a world of division. It’s a world where there is conflict, violence. But all of that has to reach this point in a great war.

Dr. Monteiro: I just want to ask one more thing before I turn it over to my colleagues. The Nation of Islam is built upon the Black man in America. Is that fair to say?

Min. Ishmael: Yes, sir.

Dr. Monteiro: Where will Black people end up, in the war of Armageddon but [also] after the war? How will we fare in this situation?

Min. Ishmael: We will be fine. We will be fine. There are a lot of lives that are going to be lost according to the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. But Black people are going to be fine. And many other people. But in terms of the future — if I understand the answer that you are seeking to your question, how will we fare — we are going to be fine. Black people and all people of goodwill. They will be on the other side of this, and there will be hallelujahs and singing of joy after this terrible, dark period is over. But we have to go through the darkest hour of the night to come to the dawn of a brand new day.

Jahan: From what I’m understanding, you’re discussing a transition through this war, the transition to a truly peaceful world or kingdom of peace, as we saw on a plaque on the way here as well. I think most people, as you said, in the world would like to see this better vision of a world free of oppression, and with a government that is truly righteous, and there are no boundaries between people. But at the same time, and I think you would also agree with this, the preference for most people would be a peaceful transition avoiding bloodshed and avoiding nuclear war. You also said there’s a window in which there is a possibility of repentance, and I think most of us are skeptical of the possibility of governments, especially the Western governments, of repenting. I’m very struck by the Nation of Islam’s emphasis on atonement and moral commitment. As you said yesterday, the Million Man March was not even demanding much of the government; it was more a demand upon the people to atone and repent and gain a new moral commitment. In the context of the possibility of world war or nuclear war, is there a role for the ordinary people of the world to atone, to take moral responsibility in order to avoid bloodshed?

Min. Ishmael: Well, the offer of repentance from God is for all the people, because as the scriptures tell us, all have fallen short of the glory of God. All have sinned, all have rebelled. So repentance is for all the people and for all the inhabitants of our planet. In what you are saying, I can see a picture; that if the masses of the people, which would be in reverse of what happened when Jonah went to Nineveh, because it was the king, the ruler, all the way down. But if that’s reversed and the masses of the people come out in atonement and repentance, would that in some way force the government and rulers to follow the lead, now, of the masses. Very interesting scenario.

Jahan: If I may: or even be able to replace the rulers, if the existing rulers are not willing to follow the lead of the masses? 

Min. Ishmael: Well, now you’re talking revolution.

Dr. Monteiro: Don’t the two go together in history? War and revolution. And economic chaos.

Min. Ishmael: Yes, they do.

Dr. Monteiro: So to prevent a war of Armageddon, one alternative would be for a worldwide toppling of governments that wish to bring about war. But is that a part, is that provided for in prophecy?

Min. Ishmael: No.

Dr. Monteiro: Okay.

Min. Ishmael: No, it isn’t. And we have seen in history the toppling of a government and replacing it with another form of government. What change has there really been? So you get rid of one tyrant, one oppressor. Then those that topple or bring down that particular form of government, but yet you still have the disease of corruption that comes right back. So we really cannot have an entirely new government or a new system until the human being is made better.

Meghna: But given the Nation of Islam’s emphasis on atonement, is that not a philosophy of the revolution of the human being? Which is that when you change the human being, like you say, you change the world. So are you also talking about revolution through the theology that you are preaching and preparing people for?

Min. Ishmael: Well, if we want to take that term, the Earth that we live on revolves around the Sun. It’s making a revolution. That revolution is made possible on our planet by the power of the Sun. It’s like that it is striking the Earth, causing the Earth to spin or make a motion on its axis. So when you talk about real revolution — real revolution is not with arms. With arms or weapons. It’s the turning of the mind. And the only way the mind can be turned in a proper direction, it has to be exposed or introduced to light. And light here is synonymous with knowledge. There has to be the introduction of knowledge that allows for the human mind to evolve.

So the scripture that we mentioned earlier, if God is talking, “Turn from your wicked ways.” The real revolution is not with the gun. The real revolution is with light. Greater truth. Greater knowledge that allows for human beings to reverse their direction. And then when you have that kind of revolution, you have change. Real change. And the result of that change, when the human being turns back to God, back to the Creator, back to the order and the laws of nature itself — now we’re in harmony with our own nature. We’re in harmony with creation and harmony with nature itself; therefore, there’s peace. The reason why there is no peace is because we are not in harmony and in accord with Divine Law and nature. We have been rebelling against the divine order, and as a result there is no peace. 

So in this name or term “Islam,” it means peace. That’s the primary idea in Islam, is the making of peace. And Islam means submission, obedience to the will of God. When we are in obedience and submission to the Creator’s law there’s peace. There’s no chaos in the universe. That’s why when we look up into the heavens, there’s motion going on. But why does it give the mind so much peace? Look at the night. It’s peace because the planets, the stars, the sun, everything that we look at in nature is in harmony with the will of the Creator. The only creature that is out of order is the human being. Does that make sense?

Jahan: Right. As we’ve said, one of our major interests is the building of a real peace movement, and I think from this conversation it sounds like you’re suggesting that if we define this true concept of revolution — a moral, spiritual revolution rather than simply the changing of a ruler, that that may be a direction for a serious peace movement to achieve true peace on Earth.

Min. Ishmael: Absolutely. Absolutely. But the challenge that every individual or groups that advocate peace are confronted with are the dark — if you will — forces. Satanic forces. And all the peace movements seem to be of no avail, because as we said, you could do it from the bottom up. And that is in scripture too. There’s a scripture in Daniel. The prophet Daniel had a dream, a vision. And he sees a stone hewn out of the mountain without hands. And this stone strikes an image of gold and silver, but it strikes it at its feet and the feet of this enormous statue was mixed with iron and clay. So that means that the statue was top heavy because it was gold. But when the stone struck that image, it brought down the statue. And the symbolism is, see, the feet or what’s at the base of all of these governments are the people. That’s why they always fear the masses, because when the masses start moving and going to Jesus’s prophecy. He talks about the tossing and the roaring of the seas, that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said represent the people. 

See, when people start moving, it starts shaking what is at the top. So when the people are awakened — Third Resurrection — the people then begin to shake what is at the top. But they exercise so much power that no matter what effort is being made on this level, they have their plan and agenda here. And they, of course, exercise their power through the military. And then we, the common people, we are the soldiers. So you gotta look at it and go, how can I affect? Because one thing is the masses and all of the soldiers are common men and women as well.

But they’ve been trained. They’re loyal to their governments. So it’s not the masses that start wars; it’s the classes. Then we have to suffer. We suffered the consequences. We paid the price of the decisions and the policies made by our governments. So how do you stand a chance? Very difficult. Very difficult. So with all of the protests and the people coming out in great masses, whether it’s in Beijing or whether in London or in New York. All the capitals.

How many times have we gone out, but to no avail, calling on our leadership to cease? Look at the call to end the genocide of the Palestinians. But the masses, all they have is a voice. But they don’t have the power to stop. So we plead with them, and that’s God pleading. That’s God pleading with the rulers, but they turned a deaf ear. It means nothing to them. Netanyahu doesn’t have the support of the Israeli people but he’s in power. So this is why God, at the end of the day, He’s in charge. He has the power to deal with that power. That the people are powerless to affect those with power. Power respects power. These are topics that talk on what is happening in our world, and it doesn’t give a lot of hope to people of goodwill who want peace and are doing everything we can. And we should not be discouraged.

But we should put it like this: we should not put so much hope in the establishment. Put it in layman terms; they’re done. But where we waste our energy is concentrating our effort on a system that turns a deaf ear. If we redirect that energy to what we were saying earlier, what is it that we want to replace what is? Then our energy and our effort becomes more productive and optimistic because now we’re focusing on what kind of government or system will be a system that would be just, equitable, and fair for all people.

Meghna: I’m wondering [about] the enormous contribution figures like the Honorable Elijah Muhammad made and Muhammad Ali in saying, “I will not go to Vietnam. I will not fight that war.” And would you say that is what you’re saying, that is gesturing towards what will replace the order that will come? Or how do you understand the contributions of the Nation of Islam in fighting for peace in the world? 

Min. Ishmael: By making the people conscientious objectors?

Meghna: Yeah, the moral leadership shown to the world and the direction they gave to people of conscience. That I will not take this stand, these people are my brothers. I will never, ever,  ever kill them.

Dr. Monteiro: Like your dad and Muhammad Ali both refused to go to war. So what Meghna is saying, if I could just interpret it, is that the Nation of Islam is one of the oldest anti-war movements. And have always — through your dad and Muhammad Ali’s examples, and some of your older brothers who refused. So everybody, the whole Nation of Islam has refused to fight in wars. And that’s not very well known, frankly.

Jahan: And if I might also add, part of the context for our discussion is that this year, 2025, is 70 years from the African Asian conference at Bandung which was in 1955. The first time that the independent leaders of African and Asian Nations got together was in Bandung, Indonesia. And what’s interesting is that on their program the resolution of the conference was the demand for freedom of all the people of Africa and Asia that were still under colonialism. But also a commitment to use the combined power of these states for world peace. And President Sukarno says something to the effect of, we have to use our physical power but also our moral force for peace. A lot of ways we see the work of the Nation of Islam and that period also in that spirit. 

I’m also interested in how, again, tying this thread of peace to this question of revolution — because I also know that the leaders of the Nation of Islam have had a very good relationship with many revolutionaries, like the Libyan Revolution and Muammar Gaddafi or the Cuban Revolution and Fidel Castro. Again, on this thread of contributing to the peace movement, Minister Farrakhan has gone to those countries and expressed solidarity with those leaders, those governments. Those governments that may be in the minority in terms of their moral commitment and of course have been targeted by the United States. 

Drawing from that, my question is: if you could speak more about how these historical examples of these revolutions — of the Nation of Islam’s relationship and solidarity with these revolutions — contributes to our understanding of revolution, the peace movement, and as we’ve been saying, the need to morally educate the people. You’re saying there’s protests, but the real challenge is transforming the hearts and minds of the people so that they truly know the power they have even in the face of governments.

Min. Ishmael: Well, when you look at what we share in common with our Cuban family, our Libyan brothers and sisters. And of course, during the period of the ’50s and the ’60s we saw and witnessed African nations that were throwing off the yoke of European and Western colonialism and imperialism. And what we shared in common is that these nations and the Nation of Islam want to exercise our freedom and right to self-determination. It’s really simple. And we do not want to be under, or influenced, controlled, and directed by the Western powers. That is the whole struggle. The revolutionary struggle is throwing off the yoke and getting rid of colonialism, neocolonialism, and the unjust power and control of Western Civilization over these nations and peoples who are legitimate, sovereign nations in all of those countries. It was the grip and the hand of European powers or America that did not allow for those people to exercise their rights for self-governance. And they wanted to control and monopolize and take advantage of the resources that are in the African nations, and take control of those resources. And those resources rightfully belong in the hands of the people of those lands.

Infinite Capacity of Human Beings/The New to be Born

Dr. Monteiro: Can I ask a question? The Honorable Louis Farrakhan, after the Million Man March, took several world tours to many governments. He was a great friend of Muammar Gaddafi’s and, I would think, a great friend of Fidel Castro’s. Would you consider these to be in some form the representatives of the government to come? Is there something about them, and I would put the Nation of Islam among them, something about them that represents the atonement that must occur to prevent a great war of Armageddon? Or if there is that war, that they will become the light to illuminate the path forward? Here I’m talking specifically of three people: The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan, Muammar Gaddafi, and Fidel Castro.

Min. Ishmael: There is no system of governments on our planet that even comes close to what is going to replace what we lived under. The scripture points us to a very special human being that is born. It’s a prophecy in the book of Isaiah 9:6, “Unto us a child is born, a son is given. And he shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace, Mighty God, and Everlasting Father. And of the increase of His government and peace, there shall be no end.” Upon his shoulders is a government. Then the scriptures says, “Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has it entered into the minds of men what God has prepared for those who love Him.” There is no government on this planet that comes close to the new government, which would be a universal government. All we know is it will be established on the basis of the three essential principles of life: freedom, justice, equality. 

But democracy, there’s elements of socialism that we can see may be a part of the new system of government. But Communism, Democracy, Capitalism — these are failed. They have failed the people. So the new government is nothing of what we have been under and are used to. It’s new.

Dr. Monteiro: How does the Asiatic Black man play into this? And if I could just add: Meghna, who was born in India, was really taken by your comment yesterday that Indians and India are the original people. And interestingly, she went to Du Bois’s novel Dark Princess…

Min. Ishmael: Dead center. The Asiatic Black man, as taught to us by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. The original man. Maker. Owner. Cream of the planet Earth. God of the universe. So the world as we know it has come from the womb of the Black man. First man, that we were talking yesterday. As the Bible says, “From one blood all nations came. And God appointed their times and their boundaries.” So, as the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us, the Black man is the first and the last. And then he said if there even is a last, Alpha and Omega. He said there is no end to the Black man because he has no birth record. Every day that has a beginning has an end. You can’t put a date on the beginning of the original man, the Asiatic Black man.

Going to scripture again, “As it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end.” So if everything started from one blood, and it started from the first man, the original man, the Asiatic Black man. Then the new beginning on our planet starts the same. It will start from the Asiatic Black man. And there you have the first man or the original man that will bring in a brand new world. That is what, when you come now to Black America, as distinguished from the Native and the original people of our planet. They are all over the planet. What makes the Black man in America so special? And what puts him at the very center of what we are talking about? It is because, as we spoke yesterday, it is written that in the end God would choose a people who are considered no people at all. He would take the despised and the rejected. He would take the blind, the deaf, the dumb, the dead. Not dead people in cemeteries, but a people who have been destroyed. This is how God proves himself. 

Dr. Monteiro: Is that the rejected stone that becomes the cornerstone?

Min. Ishmael: The stone that the builders have rejected, becomes the headstone. That cornerstone, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us, is us. God chooses a people from the furnace of affliction. He takes the tail and he makes it the head. He takes the despised and the rejected and he makes them the new rulers on our planet. Then the scripture says, “And this is marvelous in our sight.” See? But that is the power of God, and that is what the Nation of Islam represents. It’s something totally new. 

Dr. Monteiro: Yeah, it is. You’re right.

Min. Ishmael: How do you explain it? Look at the knowledge that can only be found from this fountain source. The Elijah Muhammad, he represents original man. He’s the first man. He’s the first raised by God from a despised and a rejected and a dead people. God took an unlearned man and poured knowledge and wisdom inside of that man, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad’s head. That the scripture says, “As it is written, that God would take a foolish people and confound the wise with.” That is what you read in the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. Nothing but wisdom. Nothing but wisdom that illuminates, enlightens, takes you into fields of knowledge and science where everyone is studying. And this man, a Black man from America, sheds light on the origin of the races, gives us insight, knowledge, science on what foods to eat, what foods to stay from. Gives us knowledge dating all the way back into trillions of years. He’s the first man and that’s what makes this so special. And the future of the Black man in America is to serve God in the establishment of His kingdom and the establishment of the universal government — where all of us, regardless to your race, your color, your ethnicity, your class, your creed — all of us will live together in peace. Where’s the proof of it? The heart of the Black man.

Yet, we have in our heart, Dr. Monteiro, that Heart of God that forgives. No matter what is done to us by the same oppressor, we offer forgiveness. It’s a heart made through suffering and pain, but a heart that is made to give justice to all people. No other heart on this planet is like ours. They come into our church, they shoot us in our homes, and we can go into the court and pray for the murderer. Now the problem with that is we don’t go in the court and pray for our own brothers. But for the enemy: forgiveness and prayers. We are the people of God and the scriptures say, “They will be my people, and I will be their God.”

Transition

Jahan: Your title, if we are correct, is National Assistant Student Minister to the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan — 

Min. Ishmael: We put the “Student” in front. Student National Assistant Minister. 

Jahan: Okay. Student National Assistant Minister. So if you could speak a little bit about your duties in that role. And, particularly, I mean, I think we’ve noticed that lately you’ve been speaking as well and delivering messages on behalf of the Honorable Minister Farrakhan, particularly at Saviours’ Day. So if you could speak a bit about the significance of that as well. 

Min. Ishmael: Thank you. Well, the scope of responsibility and duties under that title is to assist in the ministry, in particular, and that in terms of the day-to-day administration, it is to ensure and to make sure that all of our student ministers in our nation in 130 cities, whatever their needs are and then there could be some challenges that arise or problems that come up, to give a guidance, and direction, and helping to solve those matters that come up. That’s a lot of responsibility there, but then there is the preparing and delivering The Message each and every week from here, the flagship mosque, the headquarters, and, of course, it is webcast around the world every Sunday. So delivering the Word — that is a heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy, responsibility. So delivering the Word and helping to administer the affairs of the Nation of Islam, from the position of Student National Assistant Minister.

Jahan: So you’re also tasked at times of speaking on behalf of, or delivering, Minister Farrakhan’s message.

Min. Ishmael: Yes. That’s very humbling. Just to be asked by him. Because I don’t see myself as being qualified or better than the other student ministers that are in the Ministry throughout the country. I respect and admire and learn a lot from my brothers in the ministry. The Minister has asked on, well, all the occasions that he’s unable to speak, for me to carry the day. Over the years, it was two or three — Day of Atonement, Anniversary, Keynote address. [He] says that I had to deliver and then more recently this February. Saviours’ Day. For which the message was “Repent,” but the kingdom of God is at hand. So I’m very, very humbled to be able to serve and assist the Minister Nation in this capacity. It comes with a lot of responsibility, of course, and I try not to think about that, and just be concerned about, you know, doing whatever it is that Allah would have me to do — put my trust in him. The Minister and the Honorable Elijah Muhammad has made it, I would say, easy for any one of us in the Ministry. 

Because I often compare what we are tasked to do to a musician. Especially the classics. When you learn violin or you learn the piano or the viola — any of those instruments — and when there is the organizing of a symphony, but the score is not authored or composed and written by the musician, they put that up and they take their instrument and they following notes and so they are playing the Great Masters of Classics, be it Beethoven or Bach. I feel the same. I have to work on my instrument, whatever instrument that is, but the score is already written. I just have to put my heart in it. Practice those notes as so with the millions of words of the Minister. So I’m just piecing it and pulling it all together because it’s not my message. It’s not my Word, I’m not the author of the Word. It’s already been authored. The composer has already written the score. Now all I have to do is practice it and put my heart into the heart of my father and the Minister. Then the words that they already have spoken that are repeated, or lifted, now that Word has life in it. But the life and the energy and the light in that Word is unleashed by the love of the heart. It’s unleashed by the faith of that person that goes to that Word; then you can unleash the power that is in the Word and feed it to others. The eyes become open, the ears are open, the mind is open, but it’s not my Word. It’s the Word of God. Now, the spirit comes through. That’s different because you could repeat the words, but it can be flat. But when you lift that Word in [your heart], your heart is in that Word, and you are taking in the heart, the sentiment, the will, the desire of God that is in that Word, then you become the vessel, or conduit, of that Word. He makes it easy for us.

Dr. Monteiro: No transition is really easy, Minister Ishmael. You know, you are a brilliant theologian. 

Min. Ishmael: I don’t consider myself a theologian. I’m a student. (Laughter)

Dr. Monteiro: I was just thinking as I’m listening to this conversation that somehow, in some way, in schools of philosophy, and Union Theological Seminary or wherever, students will have to listen to this. This is, if you want to use the word, this is Black Liberation Theology, pure and simple. But no transition is easy. My heart goes out to you because we are still dealing with human beings. They can be very noble but then they can be petty. So are you prepared to face the human factor, the human being, for whom the Word is the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan? And, if you understand where I’m coming from, you don’t have to answer it, but I know there will be difficulties, and as you mentioned yesterday — Cointelpro has not ended. The Nation of Islam is viewed by the establishment as a greater threat than any revolutionary organization in this Society. And we know they are already busy in planning. So that’s all I wanted to say. I think you understand.

Min. Ishmael: I am prepared as Allah would have me prepared. My faith is in Him. I think we said it yesterday — whatever role I am to play as I am doing what I’m doing today. I can’t concern myself with tomorrow. What we have is today. Whatever Allah would have any of us to do, we’re in his Hands. When we’re humble enough to see that it’s not about me, it’s not about you, it’s about Him, then we are at peace. One day a brother came to me and he said, “Oh, I feel secure and confident that the Nation is in good hands with you.” I said, “Oh, you’re making a very bad mistake.” (Laughter)

Min. Ishmael: The Nation is in the hands of Allah. I said, “If you put that kind of confidence in me and I die tonight then your faith is shattered.” I said, “No, no, don’t do that, you’re hurting yourself.” Faith is the key here. So, you know, there’s a lot of attention on me, naturally, because as the one that speaks on behalf of the Minister, you’re going to be the focus. It’s a test both ways. It’s a test on the people and, then, of course, it’s a test on the person. I have been blessed to serve as The Minister’s assistant Minister for many years and, as time has gone on, he has promoted me, if you will, to that position of Student National Assistant Minister. But again, I don’t know if I will live to see the sunset today. So I think it’s vanity to think too much of yourself. I don’t think about tomorrow. I don’t think about the responsibility. I’ll put it like this — I don’t concern myself with it. I go to sleep at night. I never had that kind of thought ever, because if God has me to do this, that, or the other and I’m in His hands, but I’m of no illusion that it’s all God at the end of the day. I thank you for the wonderful accolades and comments but I know I am not qualified to even do what I am doing today. Now I want to be more and more humble and I just want to serve, and I do love serving, and I’m comfortable with that. But spotlight and this — that’s not Brother Ishmael. I enjoy helping people in any way. If it’s bringing you a glass of water, I’d love to do that. If it is to comfort you as you mourn, it gives me great joy to lift your spirit, to make you happy, put a smile on your face. I am a people’s person and I do love people, but I love to serve people in whatever capacity that is, I enjoy that. So whatever the future holds I can’t tell you, I can’t tell you, and in truth you can’t say what the future holds. We can have speculations and people could say, “Oh, no that’s gonna be this, that or the other.” Well, what if it’s not? We set ourselves up for disappointment when we have, I would say, illusions. We have illusions and haven’t come into reality yet, so you really don’t know. But we all will soon know.

You use the word transition. I didn’t understand exactly what you saw in your mind as a transition from one stage or one condition to another or one position to another.

Dr. Monteiro: Well, Minister Farrakhan is not speaking. You delivered the Saviours’ Day [address], and maybe you’ll deliver the next one. That is something of a transition, you agree?

Min. Ishmael: Yes, yes, of course. Definitely.

Dr. Monteiro: But it seems like things are very orderly. This [interview] is a great tribute to the whole Nation of Islam and the consciousness of the believers and of the leadership, especially minister Farrakhan. This is something extraordinary. Something very extraordinary.

Min. Ishmael: When the enemy talks about Black leadership, and historically speaking, that of all of our Black leaders, there has not been, with the exception of Elijah Muhammad, smooth transitions, or one that that greatly leader prepared for the evil accident of time. We have not prepared, as a people, well for the future. But this is what makes the Nation of Islam so extraordinary, because you have continuity from Elijah Muhammad, Louis Farrakhan, with the exception of those three years, but that’s so small. And what you see in place today is continuity. The message being consistent, the message being on point. No deviation from that. What made it easy for me for Saviours’ Day was that my teacher sat with me: here is the subject, here’s what I would like you to say, here is what I would like for you to go research and study. Then he leaves it to the student to go and pull it all together. The beauty of the Minister is that he didn’t give me a speech and said go. He gave me principles, he gave me guidance, he gave me many words, and then he said, “Listen, Allah will guide you.” Then he tells me, “Put your trust in Allah, the spirit will guide you, Allah will guide you how to say it.” 

Now that’s a very wise, confident teacher who trusts in the higher power that he’s serving and getting it to his student in a way that allows for whatever God intends. In preparation for Saviour’s Day, all of my prayers, I had over two hours of recordings from different notes and then he actually told me, “Allah will guide you to pull from the scriptures.” But my prayer was, every day, all through the day, I prayed I said, “Allah, this is your day. This has nothing to do with me. All I want is for my vessel to be empty enough and the heart to be removed of any vanity, pride, ego so that your Word and Your Spirit can come through this vessel because it has nothing to do with Ishmael, it has everything to do with Allah, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan. Let the people see you. Empty myself. You take the biggest stage.” You know people who have big egos or are vain or are self-seekers — that blows your head up. Oh, the lights are on, the cameras, thousands of people in front of you, thousands watching was the furthest thing from my mind. (Laughter)

It’s true. But the Minister is just such a wonderful example, as you said, and teacher. So when they say, you know, there’s no leadership in the Black community… But not when it comes to the Nation of Islam. As you said, [it is] very well organized and disciplined. This allows for us to provide effective leadership and guidance for our people because it’s stable. You have stability here, of leadership, in the Black community unlike any other organization, and it’s consistent. That is a great testament to the leadership which is divine leadership of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and the Minister. Many [wonder] — what’s going to happen to the Nation when the Minister is gone? I kind of laugh because they underestimate the power of the God that backs the Nation of Islam. When the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said, “The Nation will never fall again,” what could make him speak that with such confidence? Because he knew and he knew from God. So the Nation of Islam is secure against all of those forces because the forces that the Nation of Islam had to contend with yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Well, those forces did not succeed yesterday and they don’t succeed today, what would make you think they would succeed tomorrow. We’ve stood the test of time and against the greatest opposition. That credit can only be given to God. That’s why we say as Muslims, all praise is due to Allah. And as long as we remain humbled to that, we’re good. We’re good. You have some more questions.

Son of the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad

Dr. Monteiro: We began yesterday with your biography and we learned a lot about you. In fact, your biography is kind of the biography of your beliefs. You have told us so much about yourself by telling us what you believe in. But I think we want to return, as we end, to you, your biography. I have said to you how much I was an admirer of your mother, but then I found myself recently becoming an admirer of your brother, Rasul, and I’m not alone in that. There are many, many people who claim that there was something about him. You talk about the heart and I guess I’d like to express my condolences. I know that was a great loss.

You also said yesterday at the end of our conversation that you went for seven years not knowing who your father was. I guess that was the same for Rasul. Could you kind of talk to us about that? How you were able, I guess you and your mother and your sisters and brothers, to overcome those things? And how you became, and how Rasul, I guess I would like to know, became who you are? These people with such deep commitments and deep values — I don’t think there’s anyone, I know none of us here can be in your presence without feeling that there’s something deep happening in you. But it was not always easy. That’s what I’m trying to get at. Until you were seven, you didn’t actually know who your father was. What was the impact of that on you? And when you found out what impact could that have had on you?

Min. Ishmael: You know, my dear brother, what my mother gave her children is what allowed us to persevere, endure, and rise above human emotions that circumstances and conditions trigger or manifest from us. She gave us the greatest treasure that any parent could give their child — God. Sounds so simple. But my mother introduced us to Allah, God. So as a young child, to know this that is said in the Quran — nothing happens except by the permission of Allah. Whether it is His permissive or active will at work — it’s all Him. That principle is what allowed for me and us to redirect our feelings, our hurt, our pain, from individuals, from the difficult circumstances, and take it to the God. Because, ultimately, He is responsible. Now that’s on some small level, but it is a critical principle for all human beings who struggle in life’s circumstances. All of us have experienced something of not-so-good. We are people that have experienced trauma. But when you step back to see the bigger picture, to learn that we are all ready for this. Victims of circumstances that we did not create. This world of evil just didn’t happen — it was designed. There are no chances or coincidences in the universe. This is a very orderly universe. And unlike the physicists and the astronomers that look at the appearance of the universe and they conclude that the universe, that order, came after chaos. Chaos brings order but there’s an order hidden from the chaos or confusion that you see. This is a very orderly universe that is designed, if you will, by the Creator, in their patterns, in our universe. But there’s no such thing as chaos and confusion. Where God is concerned, when chaos and confusion comes, it comes to correct something. To ensure that the order or whatever the God has determined will accomplish its purpose…

So my Blessed Mother raised her children with Allah, with God as the focus. Then after meeting my father for the first time, I only had three years and then he was gone. That’s another transition, and experiencing rejection, envy, jealously, all kind of stuff… My saving grace, my sibling’s saving grace, was to keep our focus on the God, because without that, I wouldn’t be where I am today. Boy, these are long answers. (Laughter)

The most important part of this for me, personally, is that it has nothing to do with me. I’m so insignificant and irrelevant to this. It has everything to do with the two men that are above my head on this wall. And that man right there, and that man right there, as we say yesterday, I would not be here, Mother Tynetta would not have been a wife of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, there would not have been an Ishmael, a Rasul, and my younger brother Akhmed and my oldest sister Medea, from the union of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and Mother Tynnetta, if it were not for Master Fard Muhammad. Master Fard Muhammad told him to take on wives and produce more children. The answer to your questions, see, is because I had to ask as a young boy, why do I have to be born under these circumstances? And when I learned that it was not out of my father’s desire… it wasn’t a man that was up in age that the enemy had presented to the public, and that one of his students had thrown out there — that Elijah Muhammad had sex with his teenage secretaries. Malcolm knew, and Malcolm could have defended his teacher. We just had never been acquainted with a messenger of God, though we read of it. We don’t condemn David. We don’t condemn Solomon. We don’t condemn Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him as Muslims). We don’t condemn Abraham. Look at all of the prophets. What was the purpose? It was to produce children that would carry on a divine mission ordered by God. So when I learned as a young boy that it was his teacher that ordered him… Ordered, see? If it’s out of lust, you don’t need somebody to tell you to go take on a woman. Not for no sex pleasure. Wives! Responsibility.

Elijah Muhammad was a responsible father and husband to his family. No man that just takes on women like a man out of his own carnal mind, and his own appetite of the flesh, to take pleasure from a woman. That’s not why I’m here. That’s not how Rasul came to birth. We came to birth because a man has a mission. We came to birth because Master Fard Muhammad, his teacher, ordered him to take on wives and to produce children. For what purpose? Those that condemned him, of all of his children, you’re talking about Rasul today. You’re not talking about the first children. Who’s out in front? Another son of Elijah Muhammad that loves his minister. The man of his choice. He didn’t tell me, go with Farrakhan. It happened because it was already divinely arranged. And when I was questioning in my mind, as a teenager, as a 14-year-old — is this the man who does the work of my father? So that experience in Washington D.C., I saw my father coming through him and when I saw him later on that evening in his bed, I just threw myself on him and spread my body on his body in that bed. How does that happen? It’s a divine arrangement. I’ve been with him ever since. He didn’t put me in this position because I’m a son. You could say he always wanted to do well by his teacher and by his family. Some people say, “Oh, brother Ishmael is where he is because he’s a son of Elijah Muhammad.” But if I can defend myself a little bit — do you have a dumb person in front of you? Do you have someone that does not love? His father, the God, and the minister? Do you have someone that does not represent Him well? Not only in word but in passion and spirit? Evidently he didn’t have me to deliver the Saviours’ Day message because I’m just a son. Evidently, it’s because I love him deeply, my father, the cause, and the spirit of God. I see all the passion at the end of that Saviours’ day. Hundreds of people were sending in comments: young people, people outside the nation, and I broke down in tears. Because the thing that I said I prayed for is what they wrote. I felt God. It wasn’t about Ishmael. I heard the minister, I felt the minister’s spirit. I heard the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.

My neighbor who’s in his 80s, he said, “I tell you, Ishmael, I would have liked to have seen and heard the minister, but I have to be honest, and don’t get me wrong when I say this, but I didn’t miss him, because I heard him in you.” I just broke down. I broke down and all the comments were that. Because it isn’t about me. It’s about God. And my mother put that in me as a child. And Rasul. And Akhmed. And Medea. My siblings. Without God, there’s no way in heck that I would have survived, we would have survived, made it this far, be where we are, because it’s all about him. There’s a lot of emotional trauma, you can imagine. You talk about transitions. I’m blessed to not have transitioned yet…

Ending Remarks

Min. Ishmael: My dear beautiful brother, thank you so much for the interview. Between yesterday and today, I asked myself… I’ve been away, as you know. And I’m talking to God and I’m going, this interview wasn’t on my mind — until I got back. Everything that we’ve discussed in these two days have been really, really deep. And mentally, I don’t think I was prepared for the interview, as perhaps I would have done with another scheduled interview. I don’t know the questions but at least my mind is working. This one was like, oh, yeah, I do have an interview, boom! Then I asked myself, why now? Why in this very moment? You asking me these questions about the theological, the teachings, but it gets back to the personal. See you brought it full circle. I don’t know the full meaning of it, but I know it’s significant. I know nothing happened by chance and that’s what God inspired you, and you, and you, to ask me; it’s important for you, it’s important for your audience, but it’s important for me. Now I have to look at it and see how I answered the questions. (Laughter)

I’ve never given an interview like this. The broad range, and the deeply personal questions which, of course, only Dr. Monteiro could do. He has followed and studied the Nation of Islam for so many years and he’s familiar with, of course, Minister Farrakhan, Elijah Muhammad, but when it comes to Ishmael: Mother Tynetta, Rasul. So he has that, you know, that personal connection.

Dr. Monteiro: You know, this is only our fourth time together.

Min. Ishmael: Now that’s true. When we connected, if you go back, I don’t know if there’s footage, we connected right there [in the sanctuary of Mosque Maryam].

Dr. Monteiro: Do you remember when you allowed me to come up, and I became a little emotional —

Min. Ishmael: Yes, sir.

Dr. Monteiro: It was something, I don’t know how… I knew about you, but I didn’t fully know it. That’s why I was not afraid to ask you personal questions because, you know, I felt, for some reason, that I could — because of what I had experienced with you [at Mosque Maryam]. It was very moving for reasons that I can’t explain, but I just feel a great deal of pride. This mosque was not supposed to happen. It’s just a wondrous thing. I don’t want to talk too much…

Min. Ishmael: But we’ll keep talking, right? You’re here in Chicago, right? You promised me a meal.

Meghna and Jahan: (Laughing) Yes, anytime.

Min. Ishmael: We should get together more to just talk, you know, more. I would like to know more about your efforts and how we can collaborate more. Because God has put us together and my brothers in Philly, I’m gonna try to be in Philly this year, I’m gonna let you know. But I am very honored and humbled by our relationship because it’s a beautiful one. I can’t explain it except that our hearts, our spirits, our souls… we are vibing. (Laughter)

Dr. Monteiro: Destiny. Destiny.

Min. Ishmael: I think so.